Which Nihongo are you learning?

[BakaSensei]

A strange thread title, to be certain, but appropriate.

I started studying Japanese acoule of years ago through every book I could find at Barnes & Noble. I also searched the www and gleaned what I could from many site, but progress was quite slow. I late 2004, I got the bright idea to acquire a penpal from Japan, hoping to see the proverbial light. To a certain extent, I did. My penpal, with whom I still communicate, was a large help, correcting sentences and offering help. At the time, she was an English teacher (JP native) and had studied abroad. As I started trying some of my newfound knowlege, I noticed that I was being corrected often, raising many questions like "Who should I trust for opinions on Japanese, people on the internet or a teacher living in Nagoya?"

As always, the plot thickens....

I was fortunate enough to begin studying Japanese with one of the kindest humans I've ever met. I travel almost an hour (one way) weekly to take a 2 - 3hour lesson with a 67-year old widow from Tokyo, who has two earned degrees in Japanese. She has a remarkable story, growing up at the end of WWII in Tokyo. I will elaborate on her life another day, but the focus here is on a quote she made during an early lesson.

Per my sensei, there are some constants in Japan.

1) Many young people get frustrated with school, do not pass college entrance exams, forget about cram school, and work. This was especially common among Japanese females currently in my age range (too close to 40). As with many in the US, any schooling (including proper grammar) is forgotten ASAP.

2) Many young women in Japan following the aforementioned characteristics, work only as long as it takes them to find a husband. This is effectionately known in some educated Japanese circles as "Barmaid Syndrome." Draw your own conclusions...

3) Following the stats of points 1 and 2, some young Japanese women find romance in the form of American GI's or businessmen. They marry, move to the US, divorce within 3 years, and return to Japan, accidentally learning a good bit of English in the process.

With these 3 points in mind, my teacher made the statement "In Japan, they will let any Barmaid teach English." Suddenly, the "teacher in Japan" status was declining in my eyes. Still a nice person to communicate with, but what about trusting for knowledge?

After closely studying my situation and the Japanese language, I came to the conclusion that I was picking up "lazy' Japanese from my penpal, but learning "formal" Japanese from my teacher. Which is best? If you watch enough anime, drama, and film from Japan, you will hear both. I have been fortunate enough to encounter local Japanese families through a Japanese Saturday School, and the consensus opinion would be this: learn formal, proper japanese, and you will never go wrong.

I would hope that most people's JP interests go beyond anime, with an end result being either making Japanese friends or travelling to Japan as my family will next summer. My advice to anyone learning the language is keep an open mind, especially when receiving help from someone. Correctness can vary upon the respondant's education, upbringing, and regional dialect.

I hope this was thought provoking and an interesting read.

[Doug M]

Hello BakaSensei, good to hear from you again. I was wondering where you disappeared to?

Very good post.

Japanese language has always been an issue for me. Aside from owning a website about Japan, I have close associations with the country and always regret my poor language skills. I have often considered language courses to learn to speak Japanese properly. For me properly is the key word since I wish to do more business with Japan and have less desire to learn slang.

I would say you are very fortunate to have found your Tokyo tutor. This is precisely the type of instructor I would like. Does she speak English as well?

I think learning to speak properly, even if you sound like a dork in a night club, is the only way to go. From there your skills will adapt to your environment. Whether you're a clubbie or an executive (or both), with a solid foundation you're on the right path.

[yaschan]

Wonderful post! I also have noticed the things you mentioned. Myself I have mostly learned Japanese from amateur women teachers. There are a lot of differences in way of speaking between men and women. It is important to listen how both, men and women speak in Japan.

Japan, is made of fore and foremost of it's people. To know Japan, learn to know Japanese.

By the way, Bakasensei, if you would like to collaborate with me, I'd like to post your essays to my website. I think you have very interesting and unique way of writing.

[deadhippo]

interesting post
I began by learning formal japanese through text books which i thought were quite good...still do actually
they gave me vital grammar knowledge
but living in japan i continued to study this grammar but along the way i picked up the more casual version.

My tokyo friend told me that one of her friends had learned to speak Japanese fluently but only spoke using formal language
it made her angry sometimes
i think what she was trying to say is that formal japanese is also inappropriate in certain situations
it sounded a little cold/clinical coming from a friend
if you just want to communicate for business im sure formal language i enough but if you want to have friends i dont think so

a slightly different story though
i have recently gotten used speaking with a very casual manner
partly because of the company ive been kreeping and partly intentional as ive been told my japanese is too ladylike, so i started imitating tv tough guys
well, it rubbed off a little too much as i recently came across a situation where casual japanese was inappropriate and i was struggling to remember the formal language

i think we need both, and i need to study harder

[yaschan]

Yes I agree with Deadhippo - my friend constantly slapped me (little gently) to my face when I said "So desu ka", which is too formal. it can sound cold

It's difficult since we can almost say there are two kinds of different languages, formal and casual Japanese

[BakaSensei]

Thanks to all for the kind comments.

I've basically adopted the "better safe than sorry" doctrine. It has served me well. When encountering younger Japanese or people who are "tragically hip," I sometimes get the "You know, instead of that, you could actually say......." Thank goodness for the kindness inherent in our JP friends!

It seems that we tend to gravitate towards the version of Japanese which best suit our needs. While Deadhippo is obviously in the thick, mingling amongst pop culture, I mostly encounter people middle-aged and up. Situational language is cultureless, however. How often do we address an authoritarian (boss, teacher, police officer, etc..) in a more respectful manner than say, the guy at Best Buy who won't stop stalking you to see if you need help? When speaking to a Japanese person, I always bend to the side of politeness because I feel like they are allowing me to take part in their culture, and I don't want to seem like an intruder.

Food for thought. Thanks again for all of the kind replies.